From Guyana to Glasgow

Episode 8.  During a walking tour of Glasgow, her adopted home for more than 30 years, Dr. Myrtle Peterkin stumbles on information that leads her to trace her family's life in her native Guyana and discovers her entire life is connected to slave owners from Glasgow, Scotland. Dr. Peterkin, a retired physician, is shocked and horrified.  Listen as she tells her story. 

Transcript

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:00:00] What's going on, eyes on Africa, on the Caribbean has the pleasure of talking to Dr. Myrtle Peterkin, a retired physician who specialized in hematology. She moved from Ghana to Glasgow in Scotland, 41 years ago. Today we're talking about the historical links between Guyana and Glasgow from her personal perspective.   

Welcome Myrtle. How are you doing 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:00:27] Today? I'm doing very well Moronke. Thank you very much for having me on your program. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:00:33] Oh, you are welcome. You have a lot of good stuff to share with us today, 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:00:37] Well I hope so. I hope, I think people will find it of interest and hopefully it will be informative as well.

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:00:44] Wonderful. So take it away, 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:00:46] but I want to go back a little bit too. Growing up in what was then British Guyana. And from the age of about 10  I lived on a sugar estate [00:01:00] on the East coast called  Ogle Estate.  This IX estate was owned by the Booker McConnell group, a very powerful group in Guyana. In fact, they owned so many sugar estates and had so many business interests in Guyana that the country was known as Booker Guyana and. The reason I was living on the sugar Steed was that my mother who was a qualified nurse, had been appointed nurse midwife for the estate. and she continued in this role for a number of years before moving to work privately, but still on the estate.

When I was about 11, I won a scholarship. Well, I took the common entrance exam and gained a place at the most prestigious school for girls in Georgetown. Many of you may have heard of it. the [00:02:00] bishops high school for girls and having one that please, I was awarded a scholarship by bookers. I started school at bishops and one of the interesting things starting school, there was that we were still under colonial rule. So the headmistress and a number of the teachers were in fact people of British descent. in fact, they were British people and we had a lot of traditions, of the British education system. In place at Bishop's high school.

At that time,  I should mention that the school was started in 1870 with the sole purpose of educating the daughters of people who were there in Guyana, either working in the British colonial office or owners of the plantations. And the reason for starting the school was so that the girls. Didn't [00:03:00] have to be sent away to Britain just as they were getting into the teenage years, 11, 12, 13 to go to high school because when they did that, they would be alone in Britain going to school

and the parents felt that this was not acceptable in some instances. And the idea was that they would have an education that would allow them. To be on a par with their British counterparts when it came to applying for university places. So the education that was offered at bishops was really exemplary.

We learned all kinds of things about Britain, British history. In particular, we didn't learn anything about West Indian history. We also learned things that. We couldn't see a place for like Scottish country dancing, [00:04:00] which of course, now that I'm living in Scotland, I'm able to participate in thanks to what we learned then, but for the most part, our education with completely, similar to the British system.

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:04:15] So let me ask you RO very quickly, Myrtle, the Scottish country dancing, you were doing that in Guyana?. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:04:21] Yes, we were doing that. We learned, the, gay Gordon is the Highland fling, dashing white Sergeant or people listening to this from various parts of the diaspora who have Scottish connections.

We'll recognize those as traditional Scottish dances. And this was done, the dance this was done at school, our drill mistress, miss Dorothy King had been a ballerina in the UK. And in addition to teaching us about deportment and to do things like headstands and handstands and so on, we were first in doing all the Scottish country [00:05:00] dancing.

This is quite interesting. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:05:03] Very interesting. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:05:04] Now after I left brushes, so I went through high school. And in fact, interestingly, when I got into the fifth form and was preparing for my a levels, you know, leaving fifth, going into sixth form years, I was again, offered a scholarship from bookers. So until total, my entire schooling, which by that time was, you know, still paid for years and all of this, all of that was taken care of by the scholarships.

that I received from bookers. When I left school, I went to the University of the West Indies in Jamaica, enter the medical school there, and qualified after the six-year degree course as, a doctor. I worked in Jamaica for a few years after graduation. I did my internship there and then [00:06:00] worked for another two years and then came to the United Kingdom, and arrived in Glasgow in 1979.

To pursue my postgraduate studies in hematology.  Now the background to my coming to Glasgow was really, I came at the invitation of professor Eric Cruickshank, who had been the professor of medicine at the University of the West Indies, UWI. And he had returned to his native Scotland. To take up the post of Dean of postgraduate medicine at the University of Glasgow. And so he more or less sponsored my coming to a school where I've remained until the present time.  My time in Glasgow saw me participating at various levels with the university. I started out as an honoree, senior clinical, teacher lecturer at law school, which involved me lecturing to undergraduates. And I progressed from that to becoming a member of the university admissions committee for the medical school.

And I served on that committee for a total of 16 years. That was a very important role, I think because I was participating in selecting prospective applicants for our medical schools. In other words, we are, we were selecting the next generation, successive generations of doctors who would go far and wide, not just remain in Scotland. And so it is I think, quite an important activity to engage in. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:07:58] and if I may interrupt you there, [00:08:00] that's a very important role that you played there, especially for a female of color in a predominantly white institution. did you experience any, racial, issues? I know we're not talking about, that in particular, but it is most unusual for a black female to, Find herself in and to get to the level that you're talking to. I mean, that's a major role you were playing. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:08:30] It was a major role and there was only one other black person on the committee over all the year, the 16 years that I served on that committee. I didn't actually encounter any racism in that setting. And I think it was because the people who were engaged in that activity recognize the contribution that I was making to it. this was all being done, of course, in addition to my clinical [00:09:00] practice, the clinical work that I was doing within the national health service, which was also involved in educating all the qualified doctors who. We're going to be pursuing a career in hematology. They came to one of my departments come totally under my jurisdiction to learn about clinical transfusion 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:09:24] practice. So you are a powerhouse, you were, you were in charge. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:09:29] Well, I wouldn't say I was a powerhouse, but I would say that as a result of that, I have my job as clinical services consultant within the Scottish national blood transfusion service was made enormously easier because all of the hematologists in all the hospitals, the teaching hospitals and beyond the, even the smaller hospitals had passed through my hands at some stage during my career. So that that really made my job [00:10:00] very much easier because everybody, everybody knew me, everyone in the field of hematology knew I was the only black hematologist in Scotland for a very long time. And then a couple of Indian doctors came in. And so, but I have always been the only black hematologist in Scotland as far as I knew that remains the case even now, even today.

So, so. I'm still coming to Glasgow. When I did, I thought it was important to give you my sort of background from a professional point of view. when I came to Glasgow in 1979, one of the things I noticed was that there were a number of names, place names, and here. That really resonated with me because we had the same name is in Ghana.

[00:11:00] And I thought about it and I felt that this might have been because we had learned that Scottish people were great travelers and they were great missionaries that have gone out to all parts of the globe. But I thought that this association. With names like Glasgow, fairish Inverness, you know, those kinds of names, but they might have related to missionaries who had come to Guyana, Rose Hall, ding wall, all of these names as they come back to me now, they might've been missionaries.

Who'd come out there and worked, you know, in the 17th and 18th century.  but I, I just thought, gosh, this is, this is really interesting. But then in 2002, or thereabouts,  [00:12:00] an organization, a charity here in Glasgow called the coalition for racial equality and rights. They had started the year before running Scottish black history months in October. It's always in October. And I went along to some of the, you know, the scheduled events during that month. And one of them was a slavery walking tour of Glasgow. And it was then, and only then that I realized what a significant link Glasgow had with the slave trade. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:12:40] Were you shocked?

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:12:41] I was really shocked because up until the Zan, the sort of perceived wisdom was. That this was a function of the English and that, that belief was [00:13:00] backed up by the fact that we were also tooled or we understood that there was a certain degree of antipathy between the Scots and the English. And so in my uneducated mind, I thought, well, perhaps that was also the underlying factor for the antipathy between the Scots and the English that they saw them as being the Scotts or the English as being really very inhumane and as a race, as a nation. so to hear, to have the, the, see the evidence of this, the seat. Buildings that I had known that I had been into streets that I had frequented around the city that the names attached to the streets like Buchanan street, you know, which is a major pedestrianize thoroughfare in the heart of the city. [00:14:00]

you know, it would be like Oxford street in London, that that was associated with a major slave owner. in the West, Indies really came as a great shock to me and sort of undermined a lot of what I thought was fact, but which turned out not to be, factor at all 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:14:25] and emotionally, what did this revelation, do to you?

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:14:29] What I think. Initially my initial reaction was one of revulsion. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:14:39] that sounds natural 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:14:40] because, you know, I had, I had this concept and this concept that, you know, my revulsion should have been directed towards the English. And now to hear that the country that I had embraced wholeheartedly, literally from the day I arrived in [00:15:00] Glasgow I thought, gosh, this is such a wonderful environment. I feel so much at home here. And then to find that there was this very dark side to the whole, you know, the whole place, and you know, Even the area in which I live here in Glasgow, which is the West end of Glasgow, where I've always lived. many of the mansions here were, they were beaten up and I was told these are the mansions of the tobacco lords, to learn that all of this wealth was based on trade with America, the USA.

Yeah. And I don't know. I, I haven't, my research hasn't taken me that far to know how much of that trade they were supplying the plantations, but whether they were in fact [00:16:00] actually bringing sleeves, see back to grad school, I haven't yet gotten to that stage yet. So 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:16:10] that's that slaves back to Glasgow from Guyana.

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:16:13] No, no. From, from the US

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:16:15] from the US 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:16:16] whether they were bringing slaves back to, you know, cause they were, they were going, the chips were going from here. This was a major shipbuilding nation. They were going from here to the US and they were bringing back from the USA tobacco. Hence the terminology of the tobacco mansions. These were the tobacco law. But I don't do how much involvement, but what has become very evident. And I'm jumping ahead of myself, is that because they were so wealthy, they invested in plantations in the West Indies and some of them [00:17:00] in Guyana. So the link with slavery is clearly there.

And that got you thinking. 

And that got me thinking very well. But that got me thinking about the sugar plantation on which I had grown up and made me start researching whether there was any link between Glasgow specifically. And Ogle. And what I've discovered is that Ogle's Estate was in fact owned for a considerable number of years by the Campbell family from Glasgow. And John Campbell, senior who died in about 1807. He is the [00:18:00] person who, because of the wealth that he had accrued from his trade with the USA realized that. There were so many people getting involved with trading with the USC, Glasgow people, people from all over Scotland. He decided that the market was becoming too crowded.

And so he was looking for other avenues with which to trade and what they were doing. They were taking goods from here, mainly linen goods. Which were used in the, on the sugar plantations, a particular type of linen was being produced here in Scotland. And they were taking this sort of to the West Indies and John Campbell decided to take his [00:19:00] goods to Guyana because he had just heard about this place, where there were plantations. And his trading brought him into contact along the Esecubor coast. First of all, with, plantation owners who were facing desperate times and some of them were facing bankruptcy. And so he decided to buy them out and he gradually then. Moved away from shipping and became a plantation owner. And one of the plantations sugar plantations that he acquired was Ogle Estate. Now the estate thrived under his leadership. And in fact, when his. Son died in 1886. [00:20:00] He left a  fortune of 1 million pounds, which in today's money is worth about a hundred million pounds. And when his son, when John, when Colin Campbell, his son died in 1919, the 1400 was left. Was about 1.5 million pounds, which equates to about 69 million pounds current, UK currency.

 Now there's his son, John also John Campbell, but he is known as jock Campbell. He was born in 1912 and died in 1994. And he was sent out to Guyana as a young man. He was 22 when he arrived there in 1934. And he was very concerned about the conditions that existed on Ogle Estate, among the workers. And it seems that he had some sort [00:21:00] of a epiphany like Paul on the road to Damascus and he decided that he was going to turn the whole business around and make it more, humane, perhaps me make it more, you know, it easier for his workers. and so he instituted a number of reforms and built houses for the workers and instituted medical supply, medical care and so on. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:21:31] And this was around when?

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:21:33] This was around 1934 that he started. And he continued in that he continued, he became chairman of the whole Booker. This is at this point that the business was renamed Booker McConnell company limited. And he was the, he became the chairman and he decided that no, this has got to change. [00:22:00] And so he brought about a number of changes. So he would have been the chairman at the time that I got my scholarships and the time that really lived, as I said, these medical arrangements were now in place.

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:22:16] And how did you end up, how did your family end up on the estate living on

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:22:20] the estate? Yes. Well, we lived, we lived there because housing was provided for my mother as, the, the estate nurse and midwife in what was called the medical compound. And in the  medical compund, there was a nurses home and that, which was a bungalow. and there was a larger building adjacent to it, which housed what was called a dispensary and above the dispensary lived the dispenser. So the dispenser would be what you would now call the pharmacist. And the, the large [00:23:00] dispensary was where the doctor visited once a week and saw patients and where the dispenser and my mother would attend during the week to pick two workers and their families who had medical problems.

That needed to be treated. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:23:23] Okay.  

 Myrtle Peterkin: [00:23:24] So, so he was in place at that time. And as I say, he really tried to improve the lot of all his employees. but of course there had been decades scores and scores of years, really from the 17 hundreds to that point when conditions were absolutely atrocious. When, you know,  the slave labor that had been in place up until slavery was abolished. And I probably like to talk a little bit about that, up until that time, [00:24:00] they were really living in squalor and under the most horrendous conditions from what I gathered. So, 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:24:08] so for you then, realizing this condition, obviously when you were living there, the conditions were very different. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:24:15] Yes. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:24:16] Okay.

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:24:17] The conditions were very, very different from what had existed previously. and really, I think when you read accounts of what, you know, things were like on the sugar plantations, I think it's hard to believe, X the only way you can be live that. People who work creating wealth for their owners could have been treated so badly. The only way you can believe it is if you read accounts where it was clearly stated that they were considered sub-human.   because I don't think anyone would have, you know, kept their  animals under those conditions. I was recently reading an account, where [00:25:00] someone who,  mentioned that the, this is not talking about the sleeves, but the indentured laborers who came later, who lived in desperate conditions in a Logi next to the Logi was, 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:25:14] an alogie is what what's in a an alogie.? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:25:17] It's like, a very primitive dormitory, really with very, very basic, no running water, no sanitary facilities, just wooden rows and rows and rows of wooden bunks.

Like little shacks?

 It's a long, building the ideas to cram as many people under one roof as possible. So it's a long, low wooden building with a sloping roof. And inside all that exists inside are rows of bunk beds, wooden bunk beds, just slats of wood and they're [00:26:00] stacked. And so the men have very little, if you've ever been onto it a submarine. Right? I have you, you will understand it's that kind of space allocated to each worker. Next to the  was at sort of well-built, house, a big building, like a farm. You think you would see out if you drive through the U S you see these farms buildings where they will store their grain and so on. And if someone came visiting the estate and said, Oh, why are you living under these conditions in this place when there's this lovely? Why, why don't you move into this lovely building and the person who to the question was being put said, or no, that building. Is for the mules, the mules that pull the barges [00:27:00] along the canals, taking the sugar to the refinery.

We have to live here. And the man said, but why? He said, because the mules are very valuable. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:27:10] So, the slaves or the, indentured workers. Which is what we're talking about right now we're worthy less 

value. Yes. They're worth than the animals. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:27:20] Yeah. And that, that's the only way you can, you know, really appreciate  how they could treat, because they clearly felt that they had no value. They were, or they were subhuman. 

So there's 

no need to give them more care. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:27:39] So these ladies, what they still are still around? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:27:42] Yes. Oh yes. Very much. So, in fact, 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:27:46] what did you make of that?

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:27:47] In fact the memoir that I have writing? Well. when we moved there, I couldn't understand this. We, the building that we lived in, the house, we lived in probably about 500 yards a week across a field was a [00:28:00] Logan. Probably a little more than 500 yards, but that kind of distance, we could see it from the veranda. by that time I think there were, they, they had some running water, but that was about it.  That was, that was all. But the Logies were still there. 

And, and, and where did you live? 

We lived in, I lived in. With my mother and siblings in the medical component. Okay. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:28:28] That's right. Okay. So, so you were living within that medical compound, in a house, 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:28:35] in a house. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:28:35] Okay. So you really had no reason as a child to ask what those Lokeys were?

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:28:42] No, I had no reason. I knew that the cane cutters. lived at some of the cane cutters lived in them. But as I said, by that time, there were lots of houses, housing, the, the workers,  on the estate. So it seemed to me that the Loogi [00:29:00] only house, the bachelors, the unmarried, cane cutters. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:29:05] What were the, what the laborers paying for their, for their living? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:29:10] Well, that's a good question, but unfortunately I do want to know the answer. I would imagine it was so basic that they couldn't be expected to pay for it. but I may be wrong, but yeah, 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:29:23] that's a, that's an interesting, cause I was wondering if those who ended up staying in the Logan did so 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:29:29] because, it was cheaper. Yes. Yes.  I do want to know. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:29:34] Okay. Right. Yeah. so you have more to this. There's more to this. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:29:39] There is. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:29:39] Okay. Tell us. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:29:42] Okay. Well,  the point that I'd know, like to address is really to return to, I I've taken you through a little bit of. Jock Campbell trying to reform a things. But I think the important [00:30:00] thing for me is focusing on what was happening,  in the earlier days, in the days of slavery, with specific reference to Scotland and Glasgow too, and really my readings pointed up the fact that in the 18th and 19th century, much of Scotland's wealth was acquired either directly or indirectly from the slave trade. And now research has shown that per capita Scotland had the largest numbers. Of slave owners in the United Kingdom in 1833, 426 Scottish people were registered as slave owners.

 And that is really. At a considerable departure. As I said earlier, from the concept that I [00:31:00] think a lot of people in Guyana, a lot of people in the British speaking world would have had about Scotland. Now we all know the other thing that concerns me is that in 1807, the slave trade act. The real name of which is an act for the Apple abolition of the slave trade prohibited the slave trade in the British empire, but it remained legal until the 1833, when the slavery abolition act was passed.

And it was only then it was only that act that made the purchase or ownership of slaves illegal. 26 years after I think the world must have thought that sleeve, you know, the slave trade had ended in the British empire. It was only 26 years later that it did. [00:32:00] And when you think of the, the sheer volume of hardship, suffering, torture, all of the inhumane things that were being perpetrated on sleeves during that time, those additional 26 years. I just think that that is. Unbelievable. Do you think that that could have been allowed to go on? 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:32:29] So, so even as it was abolished, it continued folks didn't know that they were free for another 26 years.  Slaves  owners continued about their business as if nothing had happened. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:32:43] Nothing had happened at even  until 1833 as the act was going through parliament, some Scottish slave owners were lobbying the government here in Britain to resist taking that step. [00:33:00] Scottish people were doing that one man in particular, who seems to have been the main person behind the whole movement is a man called James Blair. And he owned sugar plantations in Berberis and elsewhere in Guyana. And he was very vocal in lobbying not to and tried his very best. Not to let this act go through parliament. Cause that would kill it. And it did, but 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:33:28] that would, because obviously I guess his argument is, as it is in the U S too, against the, the abolition is that it would damage the economy and it would hurt his wealth.

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:33:39] That's exactly right. But the irony of it all is that in passing the act and with all the lobbying that was going on, the government, the British government agreed to compensate the slave owners, all the slave [00:34:00] owners of which there were several thousand. I think the actual number was something like 26,000, throughout the British Isles. They agreed to compensate them for wait for it. Loss of human property. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:34:20] Loss of human property. That's what the slaves were?. Yep. Okay. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:34:26] They couldn't be treated humanely. They couldn't be treated as human beings, but they could carry a compensation per head. That was significant. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:34:40] Do we know what that amount was? How much property was? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:34:43] That amount was 20 million in 1833. And when converted into present day currency, British currency, that figure runs into billions. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:34:59] So [00:35:00] that was, that was for all of the slave owners, 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:35:02] all of the slave or all of the slave owners who were compensated. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:35:06] So, do we know how they got to that figure? Was there a price per slave?

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:35:10] Yes. There was a price per head and I think the price per head was 18 pounds. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:35:15] 18 pounds per head. So figure 

18 pounds. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:35:21] Yes. Now. The interesting thing about all of this is that it's come to light in the last. Four or five years, but a little longer than that. 2006, 2005, 15 years. But among those registered a slave owners were 96 church of England clergyman. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:35:46] Yep. the church was big and involved in slavery. Something again that we tend not to talk about too much. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:35:54] We just don't know about. Yes. So in, in [00:36:00] 2006, the Church of England, apologized for their involvement in slavery, in the slave trade.

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:36:10] And that was throw six, 14 years ago. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:36:12] Yes.

So, you know, there is a lot that needs to be,  addressed in thinking about Scotland's links with the slave trade. And there are so many families, particularly in the Highlands of Scotland here. Where, and this is where all the police names come from. Many of the police names that I mentioned, like Inverness, fairish and all of these places, they were large numbers of them, of the 426. The majority of them came from. That area, the Highlands of Scotland. And they became enormously wealthy. The man I mentioned who was lobbying James Blair, he's one of them. And he got vast, clearly [00:37:00] vast sums of money from the government. when the law, when the act came into being and the owning or trading of slaves became illegal. He became enormously rich. And that is why he was so intent on not having it go through. He tried his very best. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:37:24] so has, the UK paid off this, this debt, this, 20 million or, Oh, is it still ongoing? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:37:34] Well, the situation there was that the government did not have that kind of money. The British government didn't have that kind of money. So the British government got into enormous debt. And in fact, I don't think many British people, people were aware of that, or even are aware of that. Now the debt was so enormous in meeting this payoff to all these. [00:38:00] Thousands of slave owners, but that debt remained in place until 2015, five years ago when the government was able to make the last payment on that debt. And of course all those payments would have been made from taxpayer's money. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:38:25] Oh, 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:38:27] now. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:38:27] You were contributing. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:38:29] I was contributing because I was a higher rate taxpayer in the United Kingdom. So unwittingly, I was paying the government of the United Kingdom, 40% of my income. There's only one bracket above that, which is the 45% bracket for the really Richard Branson's and people like that. I think, S o some of my, some of the income tax that I was paying the government would have been used [00:39:00] to compensate these people. If you think about it, they had been paid. This money had to be paid back. So really I was supporting that repay, and therefore I was paying them for having 

and slaved 

people. My ancestors.

Yes.  over centuries, they had become inordinately wealthy from the produce of the plantations, not just in Guyana, but throughout the West Indies and throughout the British empire. And of course, as we know, when the slaves were freed They received absolutely no compensation. They had nothing. They had no homes because as I said, many of them were living in homes that had been homes in inverted commas that had been provided by their slave owners. So they found themselves [00:40:00] penniless. They found themselves homeless. And they found themselves with no form of employment because many of them only knew the work associated with the growing and harvesting of cane. So it seems to me a terribly injustice that these very wealthy people should have received compensation. But the People who were no left destitute, no consideration was given to them at all. So I, I really, I really think that that is one aspect that I suspect will come as a surprise to many people. I don't doubt that they may have been some, very caring. You know, plantation owners who may have allowed them to remain in their houses, but I doubt it very much because that's when they brought in indentured labor to work on the [00:41:00] sugar plantations. So I don't know how many of the slaves would have been allowed to continue in work.  and that's an area that I really need to research. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:41:14] So, so in thinking about all this,  do you feel, resentment, or anger or at this point is it, is, is discovering all this just a, a matter of fact, a fascinating discovery, or a truth that  you have to accept. How would you characterize? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:41:36] I have to say that as I delve deeper and deeper into this, I become not less angry, but more angry. Like when I found out that the church whose primary purpose, it doesn't matter what church it is. Any church, the biblical teaching is that we are all equal. And that we [00:42:00] need to treat our fellow men with compassion, treat others as we would have them treat us. And all of these platitudes that religion is  meant to impart to, which is why missionaries go out and tell people, well, if you've not been living in this way, but these very people who were meant to be living Christian lives, Have now, now that the list of people involved and the fact that list hasn't been fully disclosed.

but when some of it has been disclosed and we find that 96 clergymen, that's what we knew at the moment. we're involved in this practice. You, you, you, you feel betrayed, you feel, I feel angry. I feel a great sense of betrayal on behalf of all of those people who must have known what the conditions were like on these [00:43:00] plantations.

And really very, very few seemed to have joined the abolish, you know, the, the move to abolish slavery and those who were people in positions of power were ostracized and vilified. And. All of this and, you know, called horrible names and things like that. So my emotions are many right there. I'm indignant. I, I am disgusted. I am angry. I feel a sense of revulsion when I read about the things that went on and, I know this all happened a long time ago. And some people may say, well, why, but, but, you know, it's, it's like people feeling revulsion about Auschwitz. I, you know, we know it's happened a long time ago, but you can't help when you go [00:44:00] there and you see these things, it's the same. You, you are horrified that human beings could treat other human beings like this. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:44:08] But, you know, they say, you know, several scholars, have said that Scotland, is not as, was not as big in  slave ownership as was England. I won't say that it's a minor role, but they say that this was a small, piece. What, what, what's your response to that? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:44:25] My responses. That is the narrative that they have told us for really centuries now for decades now.  and that's really the point at which I started thinking about Scotland and that's really the sort of Rose tinted glasses view of things, but per capita, You know, the population of Scotland is a fraction of the population of the United Kingdom.

And at the moment, for example, the population of Scotland is about [00:45:00] 5.5 million. The population of United Kingdom is almost 67 million. Now obviously population growth has been exponential since that time, but I'm just giving you those figures to show that. When you work it out per head of population, Scotland had many more slave owners in the 18th century.

It's 18th and 19th century than the rest of the UK combined. So the people who want to see that, that, that is not so really need to go and look at the figures. And also need to go and look at the number of very wealthy families here in Scotland who owned vast estates based on the wealth that they acquired from the slave trade.

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:45:54] Now, you said you wanted to share this information you wanted to, have this information, [00:46:00] distributed. widely. Why is that important to you? What can we gain from this? Either as Guyanese or as Scottish people or as UK citizens? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:46:13] Yes. You see, I think what we can gain what we, we need to educate. We need to educate not just Guyanese people and people within the West Indies about what happened during this time, because I've started by seeing, I went to a very prestigious high school where we learned a lot about the world around us. We learned nothing about what had been happening on our very soil.

We learned nothing about slavery. Absolutely nothing. The only thing I knew about slavery was about one man called kufi to whom a statue was erected in [00:47:00] George Dawn. And we did, we knew nothing else about Kufi. He had been a slave who had led a rebellion. That's all I ever knew about slavery. When I went to Jamaica, I learned a little bit more about the Maroons breakaway group of slaves who fled to the Hills and established a community there. But that, that, that was a sketchy as it was. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:47:25] Cause they didn't like to talk about the Maroons. I mean, they were, 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:47:28] they were really, they were arising and I would see they. They seem to have had cause to do that. but as I say, that's all I ever knew about slavery. if I hadn't come to Scotland, I don't think that I would have learned as much about slavery and the slave practices as I now do.

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:47:52] So would you like this history then to be taught in Guyanese schools? when do we start at what level do we start? 

[00:48:00] Myrtle Peterkin: [00:48:00] What grade would you like us to start? Good teaching this kind of history round about the middle of primary school age, when children can have the opportunity of not being traumatized.

But being exposed to something that they would need to, to know that their ancestors went through this and emerged at the other side. And I think that, well, many of them were, I can't say unscathed because many of them were, were deeply traumatized and, too many were killed. Because of disobedience, simple little things that they did wrong.

I think it would be wrong to introduce it in the first years of primary school, because I think you could probably do things like, you know, comic book style things in the middle school. I don't mean comic books, but you know what I mean, treated journals a little, you know, [00:49:00]  pictorial history lessons and then broaden it into them doing research and finding out about their ancestors. Because I mentioned this guy, mr. Blair, who had estates in Berbis. My mother grew up on in skeldon Estate where my grandfather, my maternal grandfather at that time was an overseer. And you know, my mother never told us anything about what went on in the sugar estates index in the, you know, in skeldon?

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:49:36] Did she know what was going on?

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:49:39] I don't know if she, I don't know if she knew anything about what went on there,'

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:49:43] but you, but your, your feeling is she should have 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:49:47] my feeling is that she should have known what went on. If my grandfather was obviously, this was after slavery long after slavery ended, but he would, would have been talking with people who had lived through [00:50:00] those times I'm sure. And who his ancestors had lived through very desperate times when they were slaves. and so unless we talk about these things, the history will be lost. The appreciation. Of what they endured will be lost. And there's another reason why I would like particularly British people and people in the English speaking world, people, you know, in the United States as well.

All of these other places to know about this is in the 18th and 19th century, much of the wealth of Scotland. And much of the wealth of the rest of Britain was acquired either directly or indirectly from the slave trade. So not only that, the British exploited, the slaves as they did up until slavery was abolished.

But as part of the British empire, they [00:51:00] then continued on a different tack and that tack was exploiting our mineral and other resources to their benefit because they were the colonial power. Right. So the wealth that flowed into Britain from its colonies. Is what has continued to provide up until independence for many of these countries is what continue to fuel the wealth of this nation. But we come here from the colonies to Britain and we are subjected to racism. When the, all the things, the social benefits that the British people enjoy today are really the result of the wealth that we provided them. And I don't think that people see that link at all British people, because they've [00:52:00] not been educated about it.

If you put the facts before them, some of them will say, Oh, you're making it up or something like that. Others will see my goodness. I had no idea. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:52:11] And they would probably say, maybe we should make reparations. We owe them. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:52:17] I hope so. I hope they will say that. And I have to say that I'm very pleased. Is that the university of Glasgow in 2018,  they published a report after doing considerable research and they have recognized that the university of Glasgow has benefited over the years to the tune of about two, they estimated to be about 200 million pounds directly from the slave trade. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:52:53] And this is yours. This is your university? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:52:56] This is the university that I've been. That's why I'm saying there's so many [00:53:00] connections between, you know, Guyana, Glasgow, Glasgow, Guyana, all of this. So this university has said that that's what they estimated to be as far as the researchers progressed. And so the university has launched a repairative justice program,  which will result in, a center for the study of slavery being established. And they're also enter entering into a collaboration with my university. My other meter at the university of the West Indies to fund various research, scholarships and degree courses,  as their way of making some reparation. So this is very new. And a few months ago, I think it was Cambridge university, which has also, acknowledged having received considerable endowments from slave owners. [00:54:00] And they are thinking about how they might make reparation as well. 

 Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:54:06] So, 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:54:07] you know, I have, you know, Wow to it. Make 200 million may sound like a lot of money, but in terms of the harm that was done, the hardship that the slaves suffered, I think it really has to be recognized as a token. 

You're saying it's not enough. 

I'm saying it's a good start. And if it triggers other universities, you know, if Cambridge, which is considered, you know, the oldest university in the British isles, Glasgow is the fourth older oldest. Dating back to 1451. So, if these established universities are,  putting their hand on their heart and seeing, you know, mia culpa, then,  I hope that other [00:55:00] universities will look into their situations as well and see what can be done. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:55:08] Do you think when, the students at the university of Bristol and some of the folks living in Bristol toppled the statue of the slave owner and threw it into the river  do you think that it's, it's within that context, they knew, about this and were equally revolt, 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:55:28] Yeah, repulsed by the whole thing. I think, I think that many of them would have known about it because the name Colson is everywhere in Britain, in Bristol. And while I don't myself personally agree with the statue is being toppled or defaced. You got 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:55:49] to admit that it was the best feeling. Myrtle. You've 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:55:52] got to agree them doing it. I can understand them doing it. What, what I would like to see done with the statues, [00:56:00] the statues used as an educational or informative. Each one uses it as a tool to educate and inform the public about the background. The what the person, how that person came to be a prominent figure in that society. And in every case, it's because of money it's because that person was wealthy and the wealth came from some source. And it's that, that the students are targeting. They are seeing this person. Was involved in slavery. This person caused enormous harm to many human beings. The least we can do is topple him into the river.  I think if there were some way that in the same way that I have learned recently that [00:57:00] somewhere in the United States, There is a museum being created,  honoring all the black people in the United States who died by lynching. Many of them for just looking at somebody, their names will  live on in that museum. I think that if somehow, either an online museum or a physical museum could be created. Or plaques placed on these monuments or these buildings seeing this building was erected by John Campbell, senior, one of the biggest slave owners in Guyana or something to that effect. Then they will have served the purpose of letting the public know. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:57:54] So, so you're thinking along the terms of a gallery kind of like hall of [00:58:00] shame. 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:58:00] Yes. The same way that I couldn't do a walk, a slavery walking tour in Glasgow, there can be a pavilion in some way, saying these are. Glasgow;s . These are the images of Glasgow's however many slave owners who profited from human slavery. We hope that this practice will never, again, you know, Sully, the conscience of people anywhere in the world or some, you know, something like that. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:58:38] So, so don't, don't just erase the memory. No, make it prominent and, and shame 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:58:47] because their ancestors are still alive. Right? The F the Fraser's, you know, it's a very famous name in Scotland. and people like that who were, are [00:59:00] as rich as greases. On the back of the slave trade. And, you know, everybody walks into their department stores wealth. Unfortunately, they've not been doing very well recently around the United Kingdom. Many of them are closed, to tighten the business, but enormous wealth, people like that. No. And nobody thinks where did they get there? Well, I mean, I ran for, I started all of this would never have known.  for the reasons I outlined, you know, so very interesting  how we were taught one thing or not taught, but we, I'm not sure if taught is the word, because we weren't actually taught that the Scots were, missionaries and statesman. And so look, whenever one of our prime ministers, Gladston his father. Was one of the biggest Scottish slave owners. And he, he went on to become a prime minister 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [00:59:56] and people didn't know that 

Myrtle Peterkin: [00:59:58] people now don't know [01:00:00] that people at the time, people, you know, the society figures would know that because they were all slave owners themselves.

Right. Much of the aristocracy in this, what we call the aristocracy. Now, many of these people became wealthy acquired titles and, they were now accepted as pillars of society because they had the wealth. Hmm. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [01:00:22] So going back to, why this is important to you. Yeah. And we've obviously said that this is a history that has to be taught, in Guyanese schools and 

Myrtle Peterkin: [01:00:36] in British schools 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [01:00:37] and in British schools, how do we make this happen?

What can we do here? We were doing a call to action, a call to action. What, what, what would be steps that we can take? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [01:00:52] I think, first of all, The first step is what we're doing, which is raising awareness of the need for this to [01:01:00] be known more widely. And I shouldn't even say more widely to fall to be known widely because it is very little known, very, very few people know this.

And so that's the first step. The second step is I think, possibly to collaborate with. Organizations such as the one that I mentioned, which organizes the, you know, the, the walking tours and, black history month to perhaps collaborate with them to see. Well, is there, is there anything that you are finding difficult? Is there any, any barrier because your remit as a charity. Is to, you know, tell the history of these things that you're doing that by running black history month, every year. Unfortunately, not this year, I don't think.  but you know, why, [01:02:00] why isn't it? Why isn't it getting out there? You, you. Put together a huge program every year for black history month, but we don't see a number of people. For example, doing research projects on the subject, in Scottish universities, there are people doing it, London, universities, and so on. Why is, are you lobbying with the, minister of education here in Scotland? For example? You know, to see, get it on at some level onto the educational syllabus. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [01:02:36] Do you think they're still in denial?

Myrtle Peterkin: [01:02:38] I think some people, I mean, it, it's such a shocking thing to learn about it. I, I can understand some people not wanting to. Not wanting to dig too deeply because I think with the numbers of families involved, the numbers of families involved in some areas, you're going to [01:03:00] find that an ancestor,  was married to the daughter of, you know, it's going to be that kind of thing. And I suspect now that we have freedom of information, Legislation, you can easily go. If you want to find something derogatory about somebody that you're having a dispute with or something, you go there and you can look it up and see, Oh right. You know, your grandmother was, the daughter was married to the son of this big slave owner or, you know, things like that. So,  In a way, probably denial, but in a way, you know, what, what, what will be unearthed just as I didn't do, I would unearth all of this. When I came to Glasgow, once you start digging, you find some unpalatable truths.   so very interesting. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [01:03:55] So, so before w as we kind of like wrap up, what are you doing with this [01:04:00] information that you've unearthed.

Myrtle Peterkin: [01:04:01] Well, I'm not sure. I would like to, I would like to make a presentation to my Soroptimist club, at some point about it. So 

what's this club, I'm sorry? 

It's a, Soroptimist this the optimist. It's an international organization.  It's a very cumbersome name, but it really is quite simple. It's composed of two words, two Latin words Soror which is like your sororities university and Optima, which means the best. And it's an organization which works to ensure that women have the best experience. So you try to make. Life better for women and girls around the world. Okay. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [01:04:48] So you said you're making a presentation to them to see if you could do what? 

Myrtle Peterkin: [01:04:52] No. Just to educate and educate. Okay. And what  to start a debate. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [01:04:59] there are lots of [01:05:00] possibilities there and an Myrtle. We have to put our head together because I think this is definitely information that has to be shared it's information that, that needs to be told. And I think considering what's going on around the world today, you know, with black lives 

Myrtle Peterkin: [01:05:17] matter is a movement. 

Moronke Oshin-Martin: [01:05:19] this is, it's an eye opener and it's a wonderful story  that's worth listening. I'm listening to, and I think that folks  will enjoy this too  and see the value. And you know, this is a platform to explore all the potentials and any way that we can use this information to expand the knowledge, will benefit everyone. So I'm hopeful that we can do that.  

thank you so much for this wonderful information. it's impressive what you have, discovered in your research and of course, the amount of research that you have done. And we look forward to, talking to you a little bit, [01:06:00] More later on as you uncover more information. So  thank you, for, for being part of our podcast. what's going on eyes on Africa and the Caribbean. This has been an amazing, discussion, very enlightening with, dr. Myrtle, Peter kin from Glasgow, Scotland. once again, thank you. And, we hope that you will join us again, real soon.

Myrtle Peterkin: [01:06:25] Thank you very much, Moronke it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Bye bye.